Expression web 4 undo is broke. When will it be fixed?
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Friday, July 09, 2010 11:41 PMI have expression web 2, 3 and 4. I am using 3 because I can't depend on undo work correctly. I can resize work area better with 3 too. Its behavior is totally sporatic. When is the next patch!!!!!
Answers
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Monday, July 12, 2010 2:09 PMModerator
"I think they realize the problem is still there."
Yes. At the moment, we aren't actively pursuing this because there's no point. The undo code is enormously complex, as it has to be to deal with Design View, Code View, and literally thousands of unique operations. We spent several months during the Expression Web 3 Service Pack 1 work going through that code line by line, finding and fixing three problems. I need *something*, anything, that will help me narrow down the cause. Give me a reproducible case and I will personally guarantee a fix. Without that, or without some clue as to which type of operation leads to the problem, there just isn't anything I can do.My comment still applies. They can't fix what they can't find or reproduce. Paul has more than once asked for reproducible cases and details to help.
Paul Bartholomew, Microsoft Expression Web- Marked As Answer by Paul Bartholomew,Moderator Monday, July 12, 2010 2:09 PM
All Replies
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Friday, July 09, 2010 11:44 PM
How would we know? This is a user forum.
Also, unless Microsoft can reproduce your problem, they cannot fix it. If you have a reproducible case, submit it on Microsoft's Connect site.
[Undo is not broken, for me.]
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Friday, July 09, 2010 11:52 PM
I have expression web 2, 3 and 4. I am using 3 because I can't depend on undo work correctly. I can resize work area better with 3 too. Its behavior is totally sporatic. When is the next patch!!!!!
Do you Undo using the mouse or the keyboard?
If you use Ctrl+Z, try using the mouse by clicking Edit > Undo.
Because if you use the keyboard and hold Ctrl+Z too long you wil get Ctrl+ZZZZZZZZZZZ
and not realize it
Expression Web MVP -
Saturday, July 10, 2010 5:51 PM
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Saturday, July 10, 2010 6:15 PM
"The problem has been reported at the Connect Web site."
Yes, but search for the issue here and you'll see they are still looking for reproducible cases. They've fixed what they can find, already.
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Saturday, July 10, 2010 7:52 PM
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Saturday, July 10, 2010 11:22 PM"I think they realize the problem is still there."My comment still applies. They can't fix what they can't find or reproduce. Paul has more than once asked for reproducible cases and details to help.
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Monday, July 12, 2010 2:09 PMModerator
"I think they realize the problem is still there."
Yes. At the moment, we aren't actively pursuing this because there's no point. The undo code is enormously complex, as it has to be to deal with Design View, Code View, and literally thousands of unique operations. We spent several months during the Expression Web 3 Service Pack 1 work going through that code line by line, finding and fixing three problems. I need *something*, anything, that will help me narrow down the cause. Give me a reproducible case and I will personally guarantee a fix. Without that, or without some clue as to which type of operation leads to the problem, there just isn't anything I can do.My comment still applies. They can't fix what they can't find or reproduce. Paul has more than once asked for reproducible cases and details to help.
Paul Bartholomew, Microsoft Expression Web- Marked As Answer by Paul Bartholomew,Moderator Monday, July 12, 2010 2:09 PM
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Monday, July 12, 2010 2:33 PM
Give me a reproducible case and I will personally guarantee a fix.
It is not reproducible; I wish it was. It is real.Even if I ran Camtasia every second that EW is running, I don't know that I could give you better information. I certainly can't remember the thousands of keystrokes and clicks that led up to one instance of this thing.
The bug is so terrible in its unpredictability and consequences that I practice "safe editing." I save aggressively and work in much smaller increments than I normally would in an attempt to minimize the impact. This is something of a productivity hit because I have to be conscious of the use of undo and can no longer take it for granted.
Will
Baltimore, MD USA - www.fastie.com -
Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:40 PM
I posted a video to Connect #545916 showing the problem with undo granularity. It is a minor case but I was able to reproduce it on demand. Because it was so simple, I was able to remember the exact sequence of events and keystrokes.
Will
Baltimore, MD USA - www.fastie.com -
Thursday, July 15, 2010 3:16 PM
I'm convinced that the undo issue is computer/keyboard/mouse related because I never have the problem.
I can force it by holding Ctrl+Z but that is the only way.
It seems to happen on certain machines and not others.Do you have your key repeat rate set extremely high by any chance?
Expression Web MVP -
Thursday, July 15, 2010 3:28 PMIf that were the case then every application on a problematic system would exhibit the same behavior. If its *only* EW with the problem then it has to be how EW is handling the keystrokes.
--
Chris Hanscom - Microsoft MVP
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Thursday, July 15, 2010 3:32 PM
I'm convinced that the undo issue is computer/keyboard/mouse related because I never have the problem.
I don't think the Undo problem is related to hardware issues. I do have another runaway keyboard issue that manifests itself frequently with EW, but I have seen the same problem (rarely) with other apps.
Do you have your key repeat rate set extremely high by any chance?
No.
I can force it by holding Ctrl+Z but that is the only way.
In my video, I use the mouse to click on the undo/redo icons on the toolbar. This means it can't be a keyboard runaway or repeat rate issue.
Will
Baltimore, MD USA - www.fastie.com -
Thursday, July 15, 2010 3:52 PMIt it were a runaway mouse issue then it would seem simple enough to look for a certain rate of Undo and prevent it. Like it Undo was pressed (or triggered) at a rate of 5x/sec then its probably not a natural click rate. Basically, throttle the Undo.
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Chris Hanscom - Microsoft MVP
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Thursday, July 15, 2010 6:56 PMI had a mouse go bad where each click became multiple clicks.
Bad microswitch.
I would go to close a browser window by clicking the X and would wind up closing several of them.
Expression Web MVP -
Thursday, July 15, 2010 7:00 PMI understand that. What I'm saying is if that were the issue then it would show in all applications on a system, not just EW.
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Chris Hanscom - Microsoft MVP
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Saturday, July 17, 2010 10:33 PM
"Yes. At the moment, we aren't actively pursuing this because there's no point"
??????? the point would be to fix the problem - I cannot find the original post so maybe my problem is different. I am working and say I delete a picture in a page by mistake so I just click the undo arrow (or the drop down list click first item or Edit menu then undo - what ever - anyway instead of undoing the deleted picture it may undo work that I had done for an hour - many many edits and changes. If I thin click redo they do not all come back. So I saved a page and deleted a picture then moved down the page and added some text. This is horrible as if you had it set to save yoru work every so often you may not even notice that your undo had wrecked a lot of your work. I have just moved form using FrontPage 2003 and its undo works like a charm. Maybe the team who made ti can fix this program as it is not too useful unless you can correct mistakes.
""without some clue as to which type of operation leads to the problem, there just isn't anything I can do."
I do not know what you mean what operation - just as I said it happens anytime you make a change and then want to go back. I can make a film showing how it works - how it does not work but we all have the same problem it seems. Sure there is a lot of code but that is the programmer's job to make it work.
Someone said the EW 3 works 0-- if so maybe I can downgrade somehow??
thanks - hope you fix this - I have dreamweaver and it may be better but am used to how Front Page worked and EW seems similar so no big learning curve
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Saturday, July 17, 2010 10:51 PM
"Yes. At the moment, we aren't actively pursuing this because there's no point. The undo code is enormously complex, as it has to be to deal with Design View, Code View, and literally thousands of unique operations. We spent several months during the Expression Web 3 Service Pack 1 work going through that code line by line, finding and fixing three problems. I need *something*, anything, that will help me narrow down the cause. Give me a reproducible case and I will personally guarantee a fix. Without that, or without some clue as to which type of operation leads to the problem, there just isn't anything I can do."
Paul Bartholomew, Microsoft Expression WebSTiger,
As Paul stated, the problem cannot be fixed if it cannot be reproduced. I suggest you file a bug report at MS Connect, and provide as much information as you can, including the exact steps you use, along with particulars about your system.
I should add, if you do not know already, the majority of the folks who help out here regularly are simply users of EW; we are not MS employees. All we can do is suggest that folks like yourself, who have issues/bugs with the software, is to report it at Connect. Those reports go directly to the MS dev team. Yes. Paul, and a couple of other MS folks do come by here to help out, but this forum is not their primary responsibility.
--P
Columbia, CA. USA The Gilded Moon-Sierra Nevada Photography
"If you want nice fresh oats, you have to pay a fair price. If you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse; that comes a little cheaper." -
Saturday, July 17, 2010 10:52 PM
You conveniently quoted the parts of Paul's message that you wanted to use, and apparently ignored completely the part that matters, or you wouldn't have posted at all. Here's the key to the problem:
"I need *something*, anything, that will help me narrow down the cause. Give me a reproducible case and I will personally guarantee a fix. Without that, or without some clue as to which type of operation leads to the problem, there just isn't anything I can do."
See those words? "Give me a reproducible case and I will personally guarantee a fix." They have already fixed everything they can find, everything that they can reproduce. You can't fix a bug you can't make happen. Got a reproducible case? Fine, post it as an attachment over in Connect where this bug is already registered. Give them something that they can look for, find, and eliminate. Otherwise all you're accomplishing is to lower the signal-to-noise ratio, contributing nothing.
C'mon, folks. This isn't rocket science, nor neurosurgery. It's "Expression" (singular) "Web" (singular), in that order, followed by a version numeral if you wish to be specific. It is often abbreviated "EW." It is not "Web Expression," "Expressions Web," "Web Expressions," or plain "Expression" or "Expressions." Not using the correct name indicates either ignorance or laziness. Most folks would rather avoid the appearance of either. -
Sunday, July 18, 2010 4:30 PM
Just to repeat, I have repoduced it and produced a video showing the granularity problem in action, which was posted at Connect.
Scott, I see no reason to try to shoo off complaints. I'd rather see the complaints accumulate for problems that are difficult - it's a measure that such problems are not isolated. In fact, I wish more visitors here would read the feedback and vote for both those they can duplicate and those they feel are important.
Will
Baltimore, MD USA - www.fastie.com -
Sunday, July 18, 2010 4:54 PM
Will,
As I understand this issue, the bug(s) manifest themselves diffferently (apparently) due to varying configurations of individual machines. Paul said they fixed some of the bugs they could reproduce, but (apparently) others are out there that have been complained about. Therefore, asking folks to file addendums and votes on bugs at Connect is the most appropriate course of action.
Yes, it's good for all of us to know if there are bugs and/or interoperability issues, and it's fine to post them here. However, what I take exception to is the assumption that this forum is an "official MS support forum" or a "Here's a place where I can vent my frustrations at MS" forum. As you know, this forum is neither of those. So, when people want cheese with their whine, it becomes a frustration.
In my opinion, none of the regular posters/helpers here are shoofing off complaints; we are attempting to direct folks to the most appropriate venue for them.
--P
Columbia, CA. USA The Gilded Moon-Sierra Nevada Photography
"If you want nice fresh oats, you have to pay a fair price. If you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse; that comes a little cheaper." -
Sunday, July 18, 2010 5:04 PM
Will, whether you meant to or not, you precisely agreed with my point. Absolutely, people should read the feedback and vote, at Connect . That would actually be productive, whereas having "complaints accumulate" here for problems that we cannot do a bloody thing about is pointless and non-productive.
By all means, if a user has defined a reproducible instance, and has either registered it at Connect or added his instance to an existing report, then coming here to report it so that we can go vote for it is not a problem. However, that was not the nature of the post to which I responded, which constituted nothing but whining about the problem, which I contend that we are already aware of, and can still do nothing about.The poster basically wanted to jump Paul because he was straightforward and honest about the current state of the bug, as is his wont, without the poster offering a damned thing that might help to ameliorate it. That I did not find useful, and said so, and still believe so.
cheers,
scott
C'mon, folks. This isn't rocket science, nor neurosurgery. It's "Expression" (singular) "Web" (singular), in that order, followed by a version numeral if you wish to be specific. It is often abbreviated "EW." It is not "Web Expression," "Expressions Web," "Web Expressions," or plain "Expression" or "Expressions." Not using the correct name indicates either ignorance or laziness. Most folks would rather avoid the appearance of either. -
Sunday, July 25, 2010 10:46 PM
Will, I think this has always been a problem with Expression Web since the 1st version. The fix back then was to clear out temp files and then it worked fine. If this is still the case then I suggest MS find a way to clear cache once you exit the application, much like in IE.
I don't rely on MS and use Cleanup452 from http://stevengould.org/downloads/cleanup/CleanUp452.exe and use standard mode. So far my undo issues are gone as long as I do this.
SFG
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Sunday, July 25, 2010 11:20 PM
Will, I think this has always been a problem with Expression Web since the 1st version.
I thought so too, but my recollection of EW1 is a bit vague at this point.
The fix back then was to clear out temp files and then it worked fine.
That is an interesting fix I'm not sure I understand. I don't see why pre-existing temp files for EW would affect the current editing session.
I often keep EW running for many hours at a time. Because of that, I can begin an editing session in which everything is going fine and the granularity of undo makes sense, then suddenly have it drop and entire page when all I intended to do was reverse the lastaction. In other words, it creeps up on me. Given that I have never deleted temp file manually prior to running EW, I'm wondering how the presence of temp files can affect the editing session I just described. I'm not saying its not a fact, I just don't understand it.
I can reproduce the case for which I created the movie. I'll try CleanUp and see if it affects my case.
Will
Baltimore, MD USA - www.fastie.com -
Sunday, July 25, 2010 11:34 PM
Will,
I'd be very careful with any third party clean-up utility, especially if it doesn anything to the registry. I've seen them make a whole system unusable.
MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com -
Sunday, October 03, 2010 12:46 PM
I am also experiencing both problems. The stuttering happens only occasionally, but my "undo" does not and has not worked at all, ever in EW3. It is very frustrating and I have to be very careful about what I do.
I am very surprised to search around in the EW3 forum and find that this problem, which does not exist in any other software I use or have used ever, has not been resolved and indeed that others seem to think that because it isn't happening to them, it isn't happening.
No other Microsoft or other software I have or have ever used has this problem except EW3. Are there no solutions?
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Sunday, October 03, 2010 2:20 PM
You are either not reading the posts or you are deliberately misstating what they are saying. Those who are not experiencing the problem are not saying that it is not happening for others, but that they cannot reproduce it themselves. That is also true of the devs trying to work on the problem. They have GUARANTEED that they will find a solution if someone will produce a reliably reproducible instance of its occurrence. Will you do that?
Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later. -
Monday, October 04, 2010 6:37 PM
...Yours is exactly the type of attitude I am referreing to when I implied that others seem (look up that word) to think that the problem doesn't exist.
Obviously, I DID real every post to get this far in the thread. To accuse me of "either not reading the posts or ... deliberately misstating what they are saying" is doing EXACTLY what you accuse me of doing! Thanks for your (un)friendly and accusatory response to my serious concern.
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Monday, October 04, 2010 6:47 PM
Nobody has said the problem doesn't exists. The development team is waiting for a reproducible case so they can fix any issues a user is having. The problem is that nobody can provide the steps to reproduce the issue. Again, this isn't saying there is no issue, its saying that's its rare and difficult to reproduce - The development team has tried.
Asking (not with an attitude): Can you provide steps to the development team to consistently reproduce the problem?
--
Chris Hanscom - Microsoft MVP
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Monday, October 04, 2010 9:05 PM
Yes there is a solution! Send code and description of your setup to Microsoft so they can replicate the bug. Oh, but since their setup is not like yours the bug will probably not elicit on their box. So the best thing to do is to just send them your computer with a description of the steps you took to reproduce the problem. Then while you wait, buy a new computer, do a fresh install of EW 4 and I bet your problem will be gone.I am also experiencing both problems. The stuttering happens only occasionally, but my "undo" does not and has not worked at all, ever in EW3. It is very frustrating and I have to be very careful about what I do.
No other Microsoft or other software I have or have ever used has this problem except EW3.
Are there no solutions?
Don't bother to post anything to the https://connect.microsoft.com/Expression/Feedback forum. That forum is a dead end that apparently no one at Microsoft is responding to recently. They even purged their database of all the unfixed bug reports older than July this year and they wont talk about it.
Edit: I forgot to mention that I've never had this bug happen to me and I use the product a ton.- Edited by Time Bandit Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:01 PM
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Monday, October 04, 2010 9:17 PM
Time,
They have a new back-end for bugs over on Connect and they are playing catch-up on the bugs that are there (or so I've heard.) They still have the old bugs but they are no longer viewable on the new public platform.
Connect is apparently in the process of a complete overhaul from what I've been hearing in other places.
MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com & Expression Web forums -
Tuesday, October 05, 2010 12:30 AM
Considering the consequences for users when this bug manifests itself I think it is unacceptable for MS to simply abandon all attempts at fixing it because it is too difficult!
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Tuesday, October 05, 2010 1:01 AM
OK, then. Don't accept it.
Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later. -
Tuesday, October 05, 2010 5:15 AM
Connect is apparently in the process of a complete overhaul from what I've been hearing in other places.
One of the "complete overhauls" I've been hearing about is replacing Steve Balmer.
http://finance.yahoo.com/video/companynews-18928726/replace-steve-ballmer-21022168 -
Tuesday, October 05, 2010 5:29 AM
OK, then. Don't accept it.
Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.
Your point being? -
Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:14 PM
I didn't try to make one. I took from your statement that you found the situation "unacceptable." That was what I responded to.
Just a curiosity question, but now that you have refused to accept it, what is your next step?
Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later. -
Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:24 PMIt's a common figure of speech which you have evidently not previously encountered.
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Tuesday, October 12, 2010 5:18 PM
Is there some sort of debug that can be run concurrently with EW4 that will track what you are doing and then "catch" what causes the issue? It would seem until something like that is available - the issue (given it's diffuculty in being reproduced) will continue.
I have a co-worked who does a ton of cut and paste of content - and we just started using Expression and specifically Expression 4 in the last few days. Today he told me that he was having this issue. I do believe it exists and would love to assist in finding a solution. I've got a guy who pretty much ran into it on day 2 of use, so he'd be a good subject. -
Wednesday, October 27, 2010 2:03 PMIf you have been reading this thread, you know that we are not Microsoft, and that if you have a reproducible case, MS would love it if you post it as a bug (including files, system info, etc.) on the MS Connect site where Microsoft can see it and try and reproduce it.
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Wednesday, October 27, 2010 2:15 PM
Yea. But I was hoping someone knew of a fix before then. I called (we have licenses) but I am the low end on the totem pole with MS support and by the time this has a fix I'll be using an older version of FP on this machine.
I just can't believe I walked out of the office thinking of using this on my laptop. Works fine on my workstation, so I'm vpn's into that for the day, and this was a *shock*.
It always happens when you are remote and under pressure to fix something, I swear to god. -
Wednesday, October 27, 2010 2:40 PM
"I am the low end on the totem pole with MS support and by the time this has a fix I'll be using an older version of FP on this machine."
Post it on the MS connect site. A reproducible case of any remaining undo bugs is something they are looking for. (I have no idea if using it over VPN is connected, but be sure to include that information.)
But if you are on a deadline to get a fix ... well, we don't write EW fixes, MS does.
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Wednesday, October 27, 2010 7:37 PM
Yes. At the moment, we aren't actively pursuing this because there's no point. The undo code is enormously complex, as it has to be to deal with Design View, Code View, and literally thousands of unique operations. We spent several months during the Expression Web 3 Service Pack 1 work going through that code line by line, finding and fixing three problems. I need *something*, anything, that will help me narrow down the cause. Give me a reproducible case and I will personally guarantee a fix. Without that, or without some clue as to which type of operation leads to the problem, there just isn't anything I can do.
Paul,
Do you have automatic testing scripts that you can run against the EW application? Tests where x number of keystrokes are passed to the application and then x number of undo commands are run and the resulting file is tested against what should be the original? If so, users could send you their source and some keystroke test scripts. This could even be an online web service like the W3C validator.
TB
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Sunday, November 28, 2010 7:49 AM
This bug drives me up the wall and I try to be so careful and save my work every couple of minutes as there is not even any auto save function - why not????? Word has hat one for years.
All was fine and I left my work and came back later made an error - did an undo and forgot to look at my whole page before saving - big mistake as the undo undid all my work even though i had saved it several times. So not seeing this I save over the data and all was lost. As the software people will not fix this as they cannot even figure it out at least they could write ans add-on what would make save say every 10 minutes to a sequentially numbered file so you could have a couple of restore points. Even Google documents has this feature so all changes can be tracked even with multiple users. This is a total nightmare for hundreds if not thousands of people who lose work everyday. I have the program on two separate computers and they both have the undo bug- one uses XP and the other Windows 7.
The writing I am doing is original and I cannot reproduce it the same on a second writing and am sure many suffer the same fate. Microsoft has billions of dollars and should not allow such mistakes in programming. If I were using an outside operating system I could understand but it is also Microsoft.
They did not even have an auto save in Front page but I had an add-on that I guess a user wrote that helped a lot. So as you say - you have given up and cannot figure this out so please give us an auto save with multiple saves so one does not just overwrite the other- this cannot be a big thing to make or too difficult.
Would Dreamweaver allow such a bug in their program? I doubt it. But I am using this as Front page was my editor so so long,
Just please give us a solution to this problem- to lose hours of work to to faulty programing is just unacceptable.
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Sunday, November 28, 2010 2:41 PM
On July 12 Paul Bartholomew posted a note in this thread:
Give me a reproducible case and I will personally guarantee a fix.
On July 15 I posted a video at Connect #545916 demonstrating a reproducible instance of the problem and made a post here to that effect. I've had some trouble running the video from Connect; this morning I placed a copy on my site at http://www.fastie.com/z/xWeb/EW4-Undo/ in case anyone is interested. As for Paul's guarantee, we understand that it was left on the table when he departed Microsoft. I hope a current member of the team will take up the slack.
To stocktiger2 and anyone else having the undo problem, I encourage you to provide documentation at Connect #545916. If you have screen capture capability and can make short videos, I think it will help because a video, especially a live one, provides dramatic evidence.
This problem clearly exists and is not only annoying but dangerous. In fact, I experienced it this morning when putting up the video page. I'm attuned to it now so I'm very careful, but I shouldn't have to be that careful.
As for automatic saves, the feature might help if it worked just like Word. In particular, if you are editing a file in EW (say a.htm) with the intention of saving it under a new name (b.htm), automatic save must assure that a.htm remains intact. In other words, it would not be a good thing if EW was constantly saving a.htm as a.htm until it was sure that was your intent. Nonetheless, automatic save as a workaround for this serious bug is not the right answer.
Will
Baltimore, MD USA - www.fastie.com -
Sunday, November 28, 2010 2:45 PM
ST, in case you missed the memo, you are not talking to Microsoft here! This is a user-to-user forum. If you want to report or confirm a bug, especially if you can provide a consistently reproducible instance of the bug, go to Microsoft Connect to do it. That is also where you need to go to file suggestions and feedback, such as your auto-save request.
We are civilians with NO control over or connection with Microsoft other than as users of their products. You would know this already if you had read the BEFORE POSTING thread, as you were supposed to. Please read it now.
Oh, and as a user of Dreamweaver myself, like many others here, I can tell you that while DW doesn't have the undo bug, AFAIK, it does have its own sack of rocks to carry around and is far from bug-free. That is the nature of complex, powerful software.
Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later. -
Sunday, November 28, 2010 4:08 PM
Stocktiger,
Microsoft owns this forum. Microsoft employees respond from time to time so they MUST read it from time to time. The moderators are Microsoft employees. I would say its a safe bet that when you post here you are TALKING TO MICROSOFT regardless of what others say. You are talking to some other posters here who have no official status or influence who are your equal members of a public forum and you may presume MS may see a post, a presumption which is reasonable. Regardless, you as poster determine who you are talking to- not another poster who is your equal when it comes to posting rights. So I suppose then when you post here you are talking to public forum equals AND maybe Microsoft.
Regarding Dreamweaver compared to EW, well this is not entirely fair since DW is a rather mature product and EW is on its 4th construct but only the second version from a major redo. It seems to me kind of like trying to compare a Corvette with a Yugo. Sometimes you want to drive a hot car and sometimes you want to save on gas.
I still like my EW Yugo but wish they would hire someone who could manage to get the product running better. I often wonder if they could get some DW people to come over and straighten it out?
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Sunday, November 28, 2010 4:36 PM
I often wonder if they could get some DW people to come over and straighten it out?
I read an opinion piece somewhere that said Adobe might be a wise acquisition for Microsoft. Maybe you'll get your wish.
I still like my EW Yugo but wish they would hire someone who could manage to get the product running better.
I understand that sentiment but I don't think it's on target. Despite all criticism of Microsoft I still think it manages to hire good development talent. I think something else is going on here, a set of priorities for the Expression family as a whole and a plan we don't know about. For example, the rewrite to WPF in EW3 was clearly a Microsoft priority but contributed almost nothing to the technical capabilities of EW. You and I would have prefered a focus on those capabilities, not getting EW wrapped in a new dress. And that switch to WPF clearly caused a lot of disruption; EW3 is the worst release not only of FP/EW but of any Microsoft product I can remember - a slew of deleted features and some breathtaking, showstopper bugs.
My wish is that Microsoft would share something more tangible about the timelime for EW and get feedback from the community about that plan. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing how great Silverlight is. Time to make EW the Web standards development tool.
And, in the process, fix this undo bug.
As for talking to Microsoft, sure they are reading here. That doesn't make it a communication channel to Microsoft, though.
Will
Baltimore, MD USA - www.fastie.com -
Sunday, November 28, 2010 6:57 PM
Will,
I see your points and largely agree with you but if its not the developers then is it management? Yes the bugs are glaring and no doubt hurt the credibillity of the product in many minds- mine included. In spite of all that I have struggled on with EW but of the 8-10 people I know who have tried it as an alternative to DW I am the only one that is left- the others going back to DW and some with anger over the experience and its seems to me that the same kind of experiences could likely be widespread. The release of EW3 was my tipping point when I got my employer to purchase DW CS5. I am not a total convert to DW yet and my big wish is that MS will as you say-prioritize EW and make it the "web standards development tool". I think people are hungry for alternatives and I think MS may have really blown an opportunity. The marketing guy in me knows how hard it is to get second chances when you tick off prospective customers with gross product flaws and busy people have only so much time to work around bugs before tolerance levels may be exceeded.
This may not be an ideal or consistant channel to MS but it is a channel and I hope anyone at MS that really wants to hear feedback would at least monitor the channel they own even if they do not always comment. If no one there is listening then that would be indicitive of a gross failure to listen to the community.
In spite of everything there are always diehards like us who invest in a product and want to make it work. That investment and loyalty over all the rough spots earns a right to be critical and makes us credible. I remain determined to stick with this product and expect to grip about flaws all along- thats called market feedback and it serves a purpose.
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Thursday, December 23, 2010 3:14 AM
Hello there everyone!
I am able to reproduce the steps in Expression Web 2! The undo function is messed up there as well.
Now, pressing the little down arrow next to the undo button works just fine, however the button itself undoes a long, long way back. Sometimes a few steps, sometimes my work has been reverted to the very first edit, others--->occasional reversion to blank slate!
This happens the most when I insert content. It also happens a lot when I edit properties. I edit a few CSS changes to my page and it behaves in that way.
Simple text edits along my path are fine and simple changes.
Major property edits, insertions, and any CSS related changes throw this undo bug.
the build I have is as follows:
12.0.4518
This is the one with the black interface.
I am using this on multiple platforms with the same issue.
I will upload a FRAPS capture video upon request.
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Thursday, December 23, 2010 3:19 AMDon't bother. In case you missed the memo, we are not Microsoft . We do not work for Microsoft, we do not have access to Microsoft's Support system. If you have a bug, file it over on Microsoft Connect. And just FWIW, even if we were all MS techs, there's not a bloody thing that could be done with a video capture displaying the problem in action.
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